#15 - What Makes a Good Court Reporter from the Client's Perspective w/ Atty/Judge Noreen Calderin and Atty/Councilman Anthony Lobiondo

Court reporters hold one of the most important roles in the justice system. We're entrusted with the official records of the courts, and we also have to run our own businesses, which is not something most of us were prepared for. I'm Brynn, and I invite you to join the discussion about the problems we face and the solutions we create on the unique journey of a stenographer. 

Welcome to the entrepreneurial court reporter podcast. 

Hey everyone. So today on the podcast we have some excellent and amazing guests. We have Judge Noreen Caldron, the town justice of New Windsor, where I am located in New York, and she's been the town justice there since 2009, as well as an attorney who has her own law practice, so she's also operating her own small business. She's been working with court reporters all her professional life. I must say she is like our ideal client. She's always speaking up for the record out of consideration for the court reporter, always remembering that there is a court reporter and that that's the most important reason for being in a deposition is to create the record. So she sets a very good example for us as to how we should also guard and protect the record. Making sure that everyone speaks one at a time follows the rules that lead to a clean transcript. So Noreen has been a member of four different Bar and Magistrate associations since 2009. She worked as a trial attorney and assistant district attorney before opening her own firm. 

Noreen and I met at a deposition and became acquainted immediately, as I really admired her and the way she took charge of the deposition which, by the way, we do talk a lot about in this podcast episode how we, as court reporters, should not be afraid to do that. When I first met her, i invited her to an event that we were hosting at my church for National Cheesecake Day. So we had this event and she came with her beautiful family, her daughters, her nieces and her husband, who is a New York police officer. So we've been friends and colleagues ever since and we just kept in contact. So I invited her to talk about what makes a good court reporter and she also invited a friend, her colleague, Anthony Lobiando, who is also a private attorney running his own firm and is an elected official of the town of Newburgh, New York.  So, basically, he spent the first six years of his legal career as a prosecutor with the Orange County District Attorney's Office as a trial attorney. After working for and being named partner in different law firms in Middletown, New York, he and his wife, Juliana, opened their own firm, Lobiando Law, in 2004. 

In addition to practicing law full time for 30 years, Anthony is now, as I mentioned, one of your duly elected town of Newburgh officials. He's the town councilman, one of the posts that I liked as kind of like an intro to him he posted as a small business owner in the town of Newburgh, i make every effort to reach out to business owners and keep everyone up to date on PPP,  rrf,  svg and other funding and issues important to business owners. So if you want to follow him on Facebook, you can look up Anthony Lobiando. Anthony is married to Juliana Lobiando for 22 years, who is also his law partner. They have two sons, Christian Lobiando, who's a cadet second class at the United States Air Force Army in Colorado Springs, and their other son, Michael Lobiando, is a junior in high school. In addition to his numerous legal activities, Anthony is the vice president and a founding member of America Rose and Swims Newburgh, which is a not-for-profit organization that provides free learned to swim classes, after school rowing programs and summer camp opportunities for children in Newburgh. He is also a founder of the Lobiando Family Foundation, which provides an annual scholarship to a graduating senior at Newburgh Free Academy. He's a member of the United States Air Force Academy Parents Club, the Don Bosco Prep Fathers Club and is a past member of the board of directors of the Children's Rights Society and the Newburgh Rowing Club. 

So let's welcome Anthony Lobiondo and Noreen Caldron today. Welcome to the Court Reporter podcast, also known as the Entrepreneurial Court Reporter podcast, where we talk about all things related to court reporting and the justice system the duties and roles and how we can be the best that we can be When it comes to freelancing. You're familiar with freelancing as attorneys, right? Yes, we don't learn how to run a business in school, right? We learn the skill of typing on our machines, and that's pretty much what we focus on in school. So there's a lot of nuances that go into running a business that we need to figure them out on our own. So we talk a lot about that on this podcast. But today we're going to talk not from the point of view of a court reporter only, but from the point of view of our clients, which are the attorneys. Today we have here Judge Noreen Caldron and Attorney Anthony. 

0:04:34 - Speaker 2
Lobiondo. 

0:04:35 - Speaker 1
Lobiondo, thank you so much. I didn't want to mispronounce your name, so if we could start by getting your introductions, i'll first ask Noreen Caldron, please introduce yourself, sure, so good morning, Brynn. 

0:04:46 - Speaker 3
Thank you so much for inviting and welcoming us to be your guests today. Thanks for coming. So my name is Noreen Caldron. I have been an attorney for about 30 years now. I grew up here in Orange County. I went to Washingtonville High School and after that I went to State University of New York at Oniata. Upon my graduation, i did actually one year power legal program in between college and law school and then I went to St John's for Law. While I was in law school I worked in the Manhattan DA's office and then, upon my graduation from law school, i became a prosecutor at the Orange County District Attorney's Office, where I met my longtime friend and colleague, anthony Lobiondo. We were prosecutors together. 

0:05:25 - Speaker 2
Yes. 

0:05:25 - Speaker 3
I don't want to age ourselves. I made many moons ago I think we should demand a recount because I think it's over 30 years ago. 

0:05:32 - Speaker 2
About that? Yes, for sure, we've been friends and colleagues since then. 

0:05:35 - Speaker 3
We were prosecutors together and now we're both solo practitioners. We have our own offices, but we cover for each other. We do each other's conflict work, so we're of counsel to each other and we work closely on a lot of cases together. 

0:05:49 - Speaker 1
Wow, i would love to hear Can you share, how is it working as a prosecutor? 

0:05:54 - Speaker 3
It's probably the most fun job that we've had. There's a lot of camaraderie in the office. It's nice to have a lot of colleagues that we can bounce cases off of. That's one of the things that I miss being a solo practitioner is having somebody readily available to just walk next door and be like hey, can I ask you this? That's what Anthony and I do with each other now, but it's definitely an intense job. a prosecutor, it's a serious job. 

0:06:17 - Speaker 2
It's also a job that for most, it's their first job out of law school. I graduated from law school and immediately worked in the DA's office, orange County. Despite introduction, I'm also a lifelong resident of Orange County, in the town of Newburgh. I went to John Hesburgh High School in Goshen and then I went to Binghamton University undergrad and then I went to Albany Law School. While I was out of Albany Law School, i actually interned in the DA's office, which is a great way to In the Orange or Albany Orange. 

County DA's office met a lot of the same people that I ultimately came to work with. I spent about six years in the DA's office and as Noreen said. 

0:06:59 - Speaker 3
I spent about ten yeah. 

0:07:00 - Speaker 2
Yeah, i met Noreen there. But it's a great office to begin a legal career because you get fantastic trial experience. So for attorneys who are interested in litigating, especially working in a DA office or even a legal aid office where you're pretty much thrown into court or what it's. 

A great way to start a career. In my opinion, i was more in line with working in the DA's office because you're really trying to serve justice. You're not representing the interests of a particular client. So if you notice, on a particular court case it's the people of the state of New York versus the defendant. So as a prosecutor you really do need to take into consideration all the interests in a case, not just whether or not you're trying to win a case for a victim. It's an appropriate disposition for the people of the state of New York. So it was a great, i think, start of a legal career. Noreen spent almost twice as long as I did there. She got to try some real high-profile murder cases and such. I left a little bit earlier and worked in private practice ever since. Right now I have my own law office, a little beyond-the-law office that I share with my wife and law partner. We're a busy office. I'm also a part-time Newberg councilman as well. 

0:08:24 - Speaker 3
So let me tell you a funny story. So when I started in the DA's office I'm not even lying to you my second day on the job, i was supposed to be second chair to a more experienced attorney, rich Luxemburg, who got sick the morning of the trial. It was a lower court trial in the village of Walden in a assault case And our supervisor, dave Huey, looked around the room and said Which one of you can try a case in Walden? And I was the only female in the group because it was all of us. I don't know if you remember it was Bluestine Schoenberg, mcmahon. 

And he said I was on the job two days. I was like me, So we certainly got over the fear of trying a case in the DA's office within the first two weeks of work in there, Whereas I've had some colleagues that it'll take them years to see the inside of the courtroom. Nope, there I was Two days on the job, marching into court Exactly. 

0:09:20 - Speaker 1
Wow. So you both have had your fair share of working on both sides of the courtroom in a little setting. And also both the plaintiff and the defense right. You're a defense attorney now, right. 

0:09:35 - Speaker 2
In fact I do a fair amount of legal defense or criminal defense work. 

0:09:38 - Speaker 1
Okay, and then you're the town justice of New Windsor, but you also are. 

0:09:42 - Speaker 3
Right. So the town justice of New Windsor is not a full-time position because I only sit on the bench once a week. So then I have my own law practice. I don't really handle too much criminal cases because I'm conflicted off a lot of them, So I do now have a largely civil practice. 

0:09:57 - Speaker 1
Okay, and which one do you like better, like defending or prosecution or defense? 

0:10:03 - Speaker 2
Honestly, i really do like the variety of having a general practice firm. The two of us don't do a lot of transactional work. We're in court a lot. So when I say transactional work, i mean like closings. 

We'll say closings and wills and trusts and contract review. We'll do a little bit of that, but primarily we're representing clients who are injured, which is a civil type of case, civil litigation. We do a lot of depositions in our civil personal injury cases. We're in court a lot. There's always a court reporter in court. With respect to the criminal defense, the local courts, as Nourian was explaining, they don't have live court reporters, so they have a recording system on a computer. 

0:10:53 - Speaker 1
And it's been like that for a while right. 

0:10:55 - Speaker 3
I've been on the bench I think I'm going on 15 years now And in the beginning there was never court reporters for anything. The lower courts are considered courts of record, which means that as long as you're recording everything and we are required to record everything, even if we go there for something that's not on calendar, for an arraignment that's off calendar we are required to record everything. But there's never a court reporter present for calendar, which I think is a shame. I really do wish that we did have a court reporter present at all proceedings, but because of funding and staffing we only have them present for a criminal hearing or a criminal trial. 

0:11:35 - Speaker 1
And I've heard from you and other judges that it It really makes a difference to have a court reporter. 

0:11:40 - Speaker 2
It absolutely makes a difference And there are certain proceedings where, as the attorney representing a private client, i decide to hire my own court reporter And when that happens, everyone seems to be a lot more on their toes. When you walk in with your own court reporter, Everyone knows that you mean business And if they're going to make a mistake then you can appeal. 

I do some disciplinary hearings, which are administrative hearings, for example if a student gets in trouble, under the education law they're entitled to have a due process hearing before the school can impose discipline of suspension of more than five days. So they have a small tape recorder or recording device that they use, and if you ever wanted to get a transcript of it, you would have to take that recording to someone like yourself to have a transcript made. But you don't know the quality of the tape, you don't even know if it's working. They do the testing one, two, three beforehand, but you don't know. But so if you're walking with your court reporter, everyone knows, oh boy, something's up here. 

0:12:46 - Speaker 1
Yeah, i've heard that. with the digital recording, you don't even know if it's going to be transcribed by an American. It might be someone in a different country who doesn't have English as their first language. 

0:12:57 - Speaker 2
Yeah, they use services. Yeah, And there's no way to really correct that record either, because sometimes you can't even hear what was actually said. 

0:13:06 - Speaker 1
Right, yeah, i mean, if it's not the person who was present there, it's a little tricky. Exactly So thank you for sharing how the value of the court reporter. It's definitely helpful in the justice system because it's a reliable record And the court reporters are trained and certified to be guardians of the record. 

0:13:27 - Speaker 3
So I'm hoping that you can maybe even share with us some ways that, because I work for the Time to Win, sharon Anthony works for the town of Newberg And because our jurisdictions don't always I'm not really sure who pays for the court reporters. but maybe you could share with us some ways that we can try to present to whoever approves or disapproves our budget. Well, if your judge or your counsel want to have court reporters present but you can't because you can't find somebody who will do it at 7 o'clock at night or the money end of it, maybe you could share with us some ways that you can make that more affordable and more available so that we can present it to our boards and say this is important and now it is reasonably cost effective. 

0:14:06 - Speaker 1
Absolutely. I was thinking the exact same thing that we should. We need to come up with some way to advocate for court reporters and have explained to whoever's in charge of the budget why it's important and why it should fit into the budget. 

0:14:19 - Speaker 3
Do you guys have court reporters at your town board meetings? 

0:14:23 - Speaker 2
We do not. 

0:14:23 - Speaker 3
I think we do have them at our town board meetings. Maybe not always. Maybe if there's only a public hearing on the agenda. 

0:14:29 - Speaker 2
Yeah, no, we have a secretary. The clerk is responsible for taking the minutes of the meeting. 

0:14:36 - Speaker 1
Yeah, I have covered some public town hall meetings in the past, but it definitely wasn't my favorite thing to cover. So that's, probably why it's difficult to get a court reporter to cover them. 

0:14:46 - Speaker 2
We have a lot of people talking at once. 

0:14:48 - Speaker 3
Yeah, and it's usually at night, but maybe if it's the challenges that the court reporter faces for nighttime travel or whatever, maybe if it can be done virtually so you at least have a record of it. Yeah, maybe it's something that we can reopen the conversation. 

0:15:03 - Speaker 1
Definitely The story that you were referring to. It was when I became an attorney. It was when you became an attorney. Yes, yes, would you like to share that story? 

0:15:10 - Speaker 3
It's a little bit of a long story but I'll try to shorten it. So when I was a sophomore in college, my parents were of limited means so I still had to work to support myself while I was in college. So I was a midnight manager at 19 years old, which probably wasn't the smartest idea, but I guess nobody else wanted the job. One of the eateries on the throughway. When you're driving on the throughways you can stop at a rest area, get guests, use the bathroom. So we're talking probably 40 years ago. 

I was working there Thanksgiving night in the mid-80s and the place got robbed And it was a pretty serious case Guns and knives and a lot of money involved And there was four of us that were health captains. It was a scary situation, to be honest with you, and I became very involved in the proceedings because I was a witness And I remember them thinking that I was going to be the best witness. But I have to tell you, when I testified against these guys, i was frightened in the courtroom to be telling my story in their presence And I think that helped me become an effective prosecutor, because when a victim would come in and would say you don't know what I've gone through I would say, actually I do And I felt like I was able to make connections with crime victims because I knew what it felt like to be a crime victim. I knew what it felt like to be afraid to testify. 

0:16:34 - Speaker 1
Yeah, but it was a Did you get hurt? Like were you hurt? 

0:16:37 - Speaker 3
I wasn't physically hurt. 

0:16:38 - Speaker 1
No, they, it was just traumatic. 

0:16:40 - Speaker 3
Yeah, they held guns to us and they held knives to us, but they didn't shoot anybody, they didn't stab anybody. They threatened us with knives and guns. I'm so glad that you're here today with us and that you survived such a So it was three females and one male, And the male was even younger than me And I was 19. And I kept in touch with him for years And he always said I would have never let anything happen to any of you guys. 

0:17:00 - Speaker 1
So Oh wow, I mean I covered the board of parole and I hear some very very serious crimes that these in maids are in jail serving 25-35. 

0:17:10 - Speaker 3
Exactly Yeah. I think the guys at Rob does got 40 years in jail. 

0:17:14 - Speaker 2
So let me ask you, as a court reporter have you ever been in a situation, while you were doing your duties as a court reporter, where there was any type of violence or anything that happened in the room. 

Thankfully not really, because I can tell you We've been there where So my wife, juliana Lobiano, does a lot of matrimonial law and she's had a couple of occasions where she was questioning the other spouse. In both instances it was the male spouse, the man husband of her client, and they basically lost their temper and completely went off. And one gentleman completely flipped the table over during the deposition and lunged at his ex-wife and his own attorney had to actually tackle him to the ground, and I don't remember who the court reporter is, but I'm sure that she has quite a story to tell over that situation. 

0:18:12 - Speaker 1
The guy ended up fleeing and police were called. 

0:18:15 - Speaker 3
Oh my goodness, that is insane And you know, judge Pasalos has that story. Judge Pasalos, may he rest in peace. You know, in county court the judges would sit up high, the court reporters would sit right underneath the judges bench and Lori was always the judge's court reporter. And there was a guy that was sentenced and I guess he didn't think he was going to get that much time, and he got 12 and a half to 25 on each separate robbery, so that's a total of 25 to 50, and he did the same thing. They had these big old wooden oak tables and he flipped it and he threw it at the judge. But the judge was up high so it knocked over everything of the court reporters. 

0:18:52 - Speaker 2
I don't know if I was in court, for I was actually in court for one of those instances. I don't know if it was the same one you remember, but there was an instance where Judge Pasalos sentenced a bad guy to a long sentence and in those days they had these big steel microphones and he picked up the microphone and threw it And then I think he did the table and then, everyone jumped away. Of course, the judge was so calm up on the bench. 

So calm, judge Pasalos And he was describing to the court reporter what was happening. 

0:19:27 - Speaker 3
Let the record reflect the defendant had to be right. 

0:19:30 - Speaker 2
So I think the court reporter was still typing away. 

0:19:32 - Speaker 1
I know shaking his shoes. Oh my gosh. 

0:19:36 - Speaker 3
You know, as the deputies are macing him in the face Right, but he remained in that, yeah, but he was smart though, because I asked the judge after and he said that he knows that if he didn't put it on the record, when the guy comes up for parole, you know how many years later it might not be remembered, and he wanted it known that this guy did this in court. 

0:19:58 - Speaker 2
Right right Smart. 

0:20:00 - Speaker 1
Yeah, they always have the sentence in it Exactly. 

0:20:03 - Speaker 2
So they don't give you any combat training to deal with those types of situations. 

0:20:07 - Speaker 1
Actually for the board of parole, it's like just last week I did. I covered 65, almost 70 interviews in a row. Back to back, wow, so it took us about two days and it wasn't, so we didn't actually go into the jail. They appear on video camera at, so I just go into the office of the Department of Corrections and Community Supervision. 

0:20:26 - Speaker 3
So the New York State office in New York. So let me ask you, was that only pre-COVID Like? so I know everything is virtual now as a result of COVID, but do the parole hearings? do they occur virtually for like I don't know safety, if you will, or are they really because of still COVID rules? 

0:20:43 - Speaker 1
Well, actually I covered the board of parole even before COVID and it was on video. But if it's like a preliminary hearing or administrative, you know those hearings that those used to be done inside the jail and they're very small jobs. But the board of parole is so many back to back that I think, maybe for efficiency and for maybe security reasons, they've always done it on video. 

0:21:04 - Speaker 3
So who's in the room with the prisoner? his attorney? 

0:21:08 - Speaker 1
They have staff, so the prison staff is there with them and if it's a rescission hearing they have an attorney with them, only if it's a rescission hearing. So yeah, it's very different, because even they don't even give an oath or anything like that. I'm not sure why, but that's how they do it, like just very quickly back to back to back, interviewing to determine if they're ready to be released. 

0:21:26 - Speaker 3
I was telling you this story yesterday about Lori the court reporter that was always with Judge Pasalos that you know we all go into auto mode and the court reports. The court reporter had administered the oath you swear to tell the truth and when she was done I start questioning and I see out of the corner of my eye Lori's like flailing her hands and I'm like you know, i didn't say anything so I didn't want it on the record, and she goes. He said no And we're all like what? 

0:21:54 - Speaker 2
He said no. 

0:21:54 - Speaker 3
What do you mean? She goes. When I asked him do you swear to tell the truth, he said no, and none of us even caught it. Only Lori caught it When I asked him questions after he swore that he will not tell the truth. So Lori was the court reporter. Lori was the court reporter. So yeah, so she was the only one to caught it. So what happened? 

0:22:12 - Speaker 1
You didn't go forward. Well, we had to reswear her. 

0:22:13 - Speaker 3
Well, he said he didn't understand the question and she asked it again. 

0:22:17 - Speaker 2
He swore to tell the truth the second time. Second time, can you believe So? 

0:22:22 - Speaker 3
anything he said before was not truthful. 

0:22:25 - Speaker 1
When you work with a court reporter. Is there any like what would be the ideal court reporter for you? What do you? what have you noticed? anything specifically good or bad? Any examples or stories you can share that would help us to know what what is a good thing and what is not a good thing. 

0:22:41 - Speaker 3
So I think I had taken some notes. So if you don't mind, i'll just try to refresh my recollection. I know some of the things that you and I had talked about that I really appreciate is is a word index. You know, if I want to know how many times did my client testify about the red light, or the speed to go through the transcript is time consuming, if I just really need to get, if I know what the issue in the case is, so the word index to me is the most important thing. I also like to know. I also like to have the appearances on a separate page So that if I have to, you know, send somebody. you'll say there's a second transcript and it's a different court reporter and they want to know the appearances. It's easy for me to locate that way. 

I think a court reporter needs to be assertive, without being aggressive. I think that a court reporter really does control the deposition because you know the deposition is part of the court proceeding. Even though it's done in an attorney's office, it's an official transcript and it could be read aloud during the trial. So I think the court reporter needs to make sure that anything that is being taken down was said You know there are some words that people say you know they pronounce it differently or they you can hear it differently if there's noise. So I think if a court reporter is being distracted by something, if there's a dog barking in the background or during this virtual world, sometimes people have, you know, their dogs on the video or their kids on the video. So I don't, i don't get offended if a court reporter will say to me counselor, can you shut your door? The phone is distracting me. or, counselor, can you ask your client, like right now the phone is ringing. 

Like that could be disturbing during it. So maybe the court reporter could say could you put the phone in your office on silent or, you know, can you ask your client to speak up or to you know, slow down. So I've had many court reporters throw her hands up or his hands up in the air and say you can't both talk at the same time. And I don't get offended like that because I know if the court reporter doesn't hear something it's not on the record and it has to be on the record. So I don't have any problem with the court reporter taking control and saying if I can't hear it, it's not on the record. I think what I try to do, because I know sometimes in civil trials that I handle there's medical terms or there's doctors' names that maybe are difficult to pronounce or spell. So if I have something I'll tell the court reporter in advance. You know, this is how you spell this doctor's name or this is what the diagnosed condition is, so that the court reporter has it beforehand. 

0:25:17 - Speaker 1
Well you are the ideal client, i think, and you actually understand the importance of a court reporter, which many attorneys don't. Well, I mean, it seems that they don't and they would prefer not any interruptions, and just it almost seems like they don't really care, Right until they maybe get a transcript that's not complete, or the court reporter has to then ask a lot of questions after. 

0:25:42 - Speaker 3
So I think it's important to just do it while we're going on, the one thing I try to say, because I think a witness doesn't always understand if a court reporter asks a question that the court reporter is not asking additional questions Exactly, oh my god. 

So I try to explain to the witness. If the court reporter asks you a question, just repeat whatever you said, because if you say something different because you think the court reporter is asking for an explanation now, the court reporter's got to take down your explanation and still didn't get the back out question. So I try to explain that to the witness in advance. 

0:26:14 - Speaker 1
So what do you think about the court reporter, kind of pre-looting or what's the word, telling something, some kind of instruction beforehand? I know that usually the attorneys do that, sometimes they don't. but what do you think about that Like, is that helpful or is that not their place? 

0:26:33 - Speaker 2
Well, i think it is their place, as Noreen said. I mean, she's really the one that's making the record. So if an attorney may have forgotten or didn't provide appropriate instructions to their witness or 2A witness, it's important that someone does it for the record. Especially if someone is using their hands a lot or not answering questions verbally, it's not getting down on the record. Sometimes, when an attorney is asking questions, sometimes they're thinking and they're looking at their notes or they're looking at exhibits and they might not actually hear what was said. Or if someone did say mm-hmm or uh-huh, they're not thinking at that point. And if the court reporter says, excuse me, so you have to answer it verbally, or you know a shaking of the head, nodding of the head, so I think it's important to have her or he active. 

0:27:33 - Speaker 1
So, basically, if you would prefer the court reporter to interrupt in that situation, then to get the transcript and see Exactly, or uh-huh Which is not necessarily clear. 

0:27:43 - Speaker 3
Absolutely, yeah. I think another issue in court reporting services that I've struggled with is I don't know how to say this without sounding offensive is like transparency in billing. You know, i anything that I get billed, the cost gets put against my client's case and I try to put as much money in my client's pocket as I can. so I know what transcripts I need and I know what transcripts I don't need. And if I say to a court reporter I need this transcript and I'm fully prepared to pay for it, but if I say I don't need this transcript, then I don't want to get a bill from the court reporter for $700 for something that somebody else requested. 

So, I think that you know a court reporter should be upfront. I even appreciated there's some court reporters that come with forms that will say you want, you know, a transcript of this, you don't need a physical transcript, you're okay getting it by Dropbox, you're okay getting it by email, which will cut down on the cost. I appreciate that, rather than you know. Some cases maybe they have nominal settlement value and now I've got to tell my client well, x number of dollars came out for a transcript, you know out of that. So if I can get my cost low, therefore maximizing my client share, you know, if it's a necessary transcript, then so be it. But if it's not a necessary transcript, because you know I wasn't the one that asked for the deposition, the question should be on the other side then you know. I think that that should be upfront. 

0:29:13 - Speaker 2
I totally agree with that. 

0:29:14 - Speaker 1
Do you have specific rates that you like to pay your court reporters And I know some are? 

0:29:18 - Speaker 3
probably like I don't know. Yeah, the rates. 

0:29:21 - Speaker 1
Oh yeah, we talked about this over the last time we spoke. So I, yeah, i was curious about that, but I know, there's some firms that I don't know. 

0:29:27 - Speaker 3
I have mixed feelings about this. How do you feel about this? Like there'll be a court reporter that maybe I'll get charged more per. How's it done? by page, by page. I'll get charged more by page because I'm not a high volume firm and I'm not using them every day, whereas maybe another high volume firm is getting a lower rate because they're using them. I'm not really sure if everybody get the same rate regardless of how often they are used. Or is there a repeat customer discount? I don't really have informed an opinion about that. 

0:29:58 - Speaker 2
I suppose repeat customer is reasonable. I mean, if you're working well with a particular office is like anything else you know, get a discount. To get some type of discount, yeah. 

0:30:10 - Speaker 1
Maybe, as I'm listening to the replay, i'm gonna have more questions because I Yeah, let's see what else. 

0:30:13 - Speaker 3
I'll help refer to my notes as well. 

0:30:14 - Speaker 1
There were things that I thought oh, i need to ask about that. I thought I would remember, but just like, as we kept talking, it got good and I forgot. 

0:30:23 - Speaker 3
Also the court reporter. I think should make sure that they ask the rules in the beginning. Does everybody stipulate And all attorneys just say yes without actually knowing what they're stipulating to? And in the virtual world that we've become, i think that both sides need to say that they stipulate to not everybody being in the same room and to it being done virtually. So if that's not on the record, it could become an issue later. So I think the court reporter needs to know that that has to be put on the record. 

I like the court reporter. the court reporter will ask is this so ordered And, if so, by what judge? I appreciate that So that if there's a question in the future I don't need to be looking through e-file to see if that what judge it was. 

0:31:09 - Speaker 1
So I think that's a good thing, Like putting it on the record. Putting it on the record exactly This is all really good to know. These are things we don't really learn about these in school, and some agencies enforce these and some don't. Some just kind of let it be up to the attorneys to manage everything. 

0:31:22 - Speaker 3
Another thing that I think is helpful is if the court reporter has relationships with interpreting services Us attorneys. We are concentrating on what the issues in the case are And sometimes we think that let's say it's a case like you have, but there's seven firms involved. Maybe we think somebody else is getting the interpreter and they think I'm getting the interpreter, and we just don't remember to ask each other, And then the day before there'll be a string of emails. 

0:31:53 - Speaker 2
Did somebody get the? 

0:31:54 - Speaker 3
interpreter. I thought you did. Oh no, i thought you did. And then here it is quarter to five and nobody got the interpreter And we don't want to bust because there's seven firms involved. So one of them said can you see if your court reporter has anybody? I'm like, oh, i didn't have to think about that. And thank God, the court reporter that we had lined up said absolutely. And within 15 minutes she was able to say yes, i confirmed an interpreter for tomorrow, rather than, at quarter to five, seven attorneys trying to find somebody. So having a list of interpreters that you know you can work with and that have other people available is a useful tool as well. It's not inclusive litigation-. 

Exactly, exactly, exactly. So then I know Anthony has a little bit more experience in working with virtual uploading of documents and marking documents, so why don't you talk a little bit about that? 

0:32:44 - Speaker 2
Yeah, sure, initially I think attorneys who were so used to doing everything in person thought the virtual was not a good idea And we were somewhat reluctant, other than the convenience of it for not having to travel to a farther location. But with technology the software now is being very advanced and I had opportunity to do a couple depositions recently using this type of technology now. That in some ways I think, makes it a little bit more productive. One of the tools that they provide, there's a sort of like a talk to text transcript being created as the deposition is being conducted. So not only can the other participants see what the questions are, they can read the questions, they can read the answers, and then you can scroll up to see what somebody may have answered either you don't remember, or if the witness has something that maybe is in contradiction to something that they said previously And before you ask your next question you can say, hmm, what did he just say about you know this intersection or whatever it is, and you can scroll up to see exactly what he said. 

0:33:57 - Speaker 1
And this is a real time service. It's real time. 

0:34:00 - Speaker 2
Yeah, it's happening real time. So, and then the other tool I think that was really helpful is that the witness himself can, with not too much instruction, look at an exhibit that's being shared amongst all the participants and either circle a section of either a photograph or a document. He can circle, he can underline, he can highlight, and whatever is being done virtually is then saved and that can become part of an exhibit for the deposition. 

0:34:29 - Speaker 3
And other things like private chat rooms. 

0:34:31 - Speaker 2
So if two attorneys need to discuss something, or if the witness if you're a client is perhaps not in the room with you and what he may be doing his deposition from his home you can have little private chat rooms where the other participants can't hear or see you. 

0:34:45 - Speaker 1
Like while on the record. 

0:34:46 - Speaker 2
No, If you wanna go off the record go off the record hey, i need a moment to speak with my client who's not present with you. Then you can do that easily. 

0:34:53 - Speaker 1
Now, is this through Zoom, or is it a separate software that someone has created. 

0:34:57 - Speaker 3
It's called Elitigate, elitigate, okay, that's a very useful tool, because we do sometimes have to talk to our clients privately. And if they're not with you, then what are you gonna do? Tell them to step outside and call their cell? phone, So that's really so being able to have a breakout room that's you know you're muted from everybody else Or, like you said, just talking to your co-counsel, right, right? 

0:35:17 - Speaker 2
And I don't know if this is something that you're doing now. When we ask to have a question reread, usually the court reporter would just look at her transcript and read the question. When we do that with the Elitigate, they go right to the question and you actually hear what was asked or what was answered, so they replay the audio. Replay the audio. 

0:35:39 - Speaker 3
Oh wow, i was curious about that because we Anthony and I were talking about that when we do, when we did more criminal trials, and there would be a read back. it would be in the court reporter's voice, because that's just the way it was done. So I'm curious now if that's going to become how they do it in trials. 

0:35:56 - Speaker 2
As well, because it is interesting. 

0:35:57 - Speaker 3
You know the court reporter is reading it back with their inflection and, you know, not with the emotion. Perhaps you know that victim and if the jury wants it read back. I think it's compelling to have it be able to be read back. 

0:36:12 - Speaker 2
It's funny when you hear yourself asking the question. It's like maybe I didn't ask that question as well as I thought I did. 

0:36:18 - Speaker 3
You know You can hear the inflection in your voice, in your pronunciation in certain words, so it's really helpful. 

0:36:25 - Speaker 1
So we can't have the court reporter clean us up and make us look a little better like we used to, we have the ability to our software syncs with the audio, So even though they ask us to read it back, it could easily be just. I could just hit the button and have it play out loud, Although nobody ever asked that and that was never discussed as an alternative Right. 

0:36:45 - Speaker 2
But it could easily just like literally just syncs right with wherever. 

0:36:48 - Speaker 1
I put my cursor, i can literally play it back out loud. Interesting, so, and then the text. The live text. Is that the court reporter actually typing? Because you know, real time court reporters do work very hard to be able to provide that. 

0:36:59 - Speaker 2
I don't think it is. I think it's like similar to a talk to text, because they told us that that wasn't the official transcript. 

0:37:06 - Speaker 1
Okay, so it's not like necessarily accurate. 

0:37:09 - Speaker 2
Exactly Okay, it's just there. It's more of a tool to help. 

0:37:12 - Speaker 3
So one of the things when Anthony and I were discussing before you came today, bryn, was we're not exactly sure how a conflict would be resolved. I mean, maybe I don't know, bryn, has that ever happened to you where you've taken down testimony and somebody has challenged what you've taken down to say my client didn't say that. Like, i'm not even sure currently how that gets resolved. 

0:37:37 - Speaker 2
Well, just I guess, if there's a recording now. 

0:37:38 - Speaker 3
So if there's a recording now, yeah, there's always a recording, i think I was telling you one of the examples from 30 years ago where a court reporter It was a big problem and I can't remember Anthony was asking me how to get resolved and I'm during a Sex crime case in which the victim said that the perpetrator had touched her breast and the court reporter heard, touched her dress. And that's obviously very different and I don't really remember how it got Resolved. 

0:38:09 - Speaker 2
But I'm yeah, that's. I mean one one is not not a crime. 

0:38:14 - Speaker 1
Right, yeah, that makes a big difference, Yeah it's really important for us to to make sure. 

0:38:19 - Speaker 3
And, and I don't know, maybe you could tell us this too do court reporters, if you're presiding over a case involving a sex crime, would you know to listen for keywords like that, or do you not really listen You? 

0:38:34 - Speaker 1
know, i'm saying like, like listen for comprehension. Yeah, you, that's, i think, always, whether it's whatever crime it is or any time. That's like the key to our job, the key to having a human not just recording. Right with the machine, but having a human be able to discern, because the English language has a lot of yeah words that are Very small phones and like different word that sound the same but mean different things. Right it's very it could be tricky, but it's. That's one of the most important parts of our job. 

0:39:02 - Speaker 3
Right. So do you think that it's important then for the court reporter to say Obviously, the victim didn't say touched my dress. 

0:39:12 - Speaker 1
Right, well, i mean for them to make sure that they hear it correctly and interpret. If they have to interpret it, they should ask their application right, because we're not really supposed to interpret the reason why we're talking about it is because It doesn't happen often, right, you know. 

0:39:27 - Speaker 2
I can think of one example. Right, it's an unusual so. I will say that in my experience in litigation, criminal trial, everything. The court reporters really do a good job. Oh, definitely you know they're well trained, They're very active. 

0:39:41 - Speaker 3
Right, i was starting to tell you a story before in which I had a case in which there was a gun Recovered from a jacket and nobody would claim ownership of the jacket. There was a couple of people in in in Vald and nobody would claim ownership of the jacket, so that I was asking the perpetrator that I thought you know. My Investigation revealed that he was the owner of the gun. I was asking him, like, what had he done earlier that day? And he claimed that he hadn't worn a jacket, even though it was bitter cold. He claimed he hadn't worn a jacket But then when I broke it down and went through it for him, he's like, and I went upstairs and grabbed my and then he caught himself because he was almost gonna say the word jacket And I had the court reporter you know, read back what he said grabbed my blank, blank, blank, and I was able to make the inference to the jury that what did he grab? He had nothing in his hands. He didn't grab his pen or his briefcase, wow. 

So I yeah, but I appreciated that the court, because the attorney objected and Then we had a whole conversation about the objection. But I appreciated that the court reporter did catch every word that he'd said. 

0:40:51 - Speaker 1
That's important. Yeah, that's a good one. So, going back to the transcript and What you said were some of the best things that you like for the court reporter to write, for example, the, the index, the word index. That's really helpful. So that brought up another question for me. Just, it's a very small issue, but, like so, when it comes to requests on the record, what what do you like for court reporters to do? 

0:41:18 - Speaker 3
when it comes to the index of requests, if you request a document, if you request a, some information to be provided later, So like, if, like, let's say, a witness says, oh yes, i have some photographs of that, and then the attorney will say I make a demand to produce that. Is that what you're? something? 

0:41:36 - Speaker 2
like that, or even if can we have that marked so You can find it a question mark for a ruling, like all the things that they want indexed. 

0:41:44 - Speaker 1
I Do you have any experience with some that are good and some that are not good, because there are different ways to work with them? 

0:41:51 - Speaker 2
I do recall that there are some transcripts that really make it clear and easy And they will highlight even maybe on another page, all the questions. 

0:42:01 - Speaker 3
Because sometimes it'll say like leave a space in the transcript, but then what? do you have to do Flip through the transcript to find where the space was? 

0:42:08 - Speaker 2
Exactly. You have to reach 200-300 pages to find all these blanks. 

0:42:11 - Speaker 1
So that's good for it to be actually right there in the index. Yeah, that's what I thought. Okay, well, i we talked about the transcript and like assertiveness on the record, but is there anything else that you think could be impressive or make you want to work with a certain court reporter when it comes to just like how they do their job in general, how they present themselves? 

0:42:37 - Speaker 2
One thing we didn't talk about is sometimes an attorney will need a rush and you might want to know ahead of time whether that's possible. For example, if I do a school disciplinary hearing there is a 30-day time to appeal the decision, so I can't be getting the transcript within, you know, a few days or after the time period that runs. So some of these things are time sensitive and will need the transcript immediately. 

Sometimes we'll do a hearing where there might be an issue, for example, if there is a probable clause hearing before a judge and the judge wants to make a ruling. If you had your transcript available to help you, many times the judge will ask for briefs on the subject, you know. Please submit written memorandums of law as to how I should rule. So if they had. you know, sometimes specific questions and issues will be very apparent in the transcript and you want to refer to those, so the court reporter will need to get that hearing transcribed quickly into the parties. 

0:43:41 - Speaker 1
And that's known. 

0:43:42 - Speaker 2
You're saying, if it's known in advance, or Yeah, so it's something probably that should be discussed. The attorney probably should let the you know the court reporter know that as well. Or at least the day of Yeah we're gonna need a rush on this as this possible And there's usually an extra expense because you would have to put away a side of the work, but that's an important thing. 

0:44:05 - Speaker 3
Right, i know the one thing, and it's again not something that happens often, but I think there's a fine line between being assertive and crossing the line. And I was telling Anthony the story before you came about. I guess a witness was presenting poorly And it was during a criminal trial and the court reporter told the witness sit up straight and talk clearly. And I didn't really think that was her place to say sit up straight, talk clearly. Okay, but sit up straight. You know, if he wants to make a poor impression by slumping over then that's on him. 

So I thought that court reporter took it too far. If she wants to say and maybe she should be directing her concern or her issue to the judge She should say, judge, i can't hear him. And then the judge will say, sir, sit up straight and talk clearly. So you know, i guess if you're in a situation with just attorneys versus the courtroom, i suppose the court reporter should direct her concern to the judge. 

0:45:10 - Speaker 1
I would agree with that When a court reporter wants to clarify a maybe a name, case, specific name or a spelling, or maybe they think they heard something, didn't hear it correctly. But like what, if that happens constantly? 

0:45:28 - Speaker 2
I mean, as Noreen had said earlier, sometimes we're dealing, you know, medical terms and words that are difficult to pronounce. Names are difficult to pronounce. Sometimes the attorney can provide that The records. Or even during, but I mean if it's a constant interruption and it's interrupting the flow of questioning, i suppose it could be a distraction. I've never had that situation. Like I said, my impression overall is that court reporters really do a good job. 

0:46:01 - Speaker 3
And I think if you're a court reporter that handles a lot of these types of cases, like maybe not the doctor's name, but like, if you're talking about words, like you know, ridiculous, but the, or you know my Alja, you know you could probably who do a lot of PI or even medical malpractice. 

0:46:21 - Speaker 2
You know, they're very well schooled. 

0:46:22 - Speaker 3
Right, right. 

0:46:25 - Speaker 1
And there's a listen. 

0:46:26 - Speaker 2
You know there's going to be new court reporters and. I think everyone should be patient. There's new attorneys that are asking questions before. So you know, occasionally it'll be someone's. You can tell that they're. You don't have a lot of experience, but that's how they get experience. 

0:46:40 - Speaker 1
Yeah, i try to limit the amount of times. I do that because I know that, like after the fact, when I look it up, it's very easy to find out and it's kind of fun actually to do research and learn new words and new spellings. 

0:46:50 - Speaker 3
Right. 

0:46:51 - Speaker 1
And I think there's a lot of times that you know when it's case specific, when it's name or something like that, and I maybe make a mark to ask later. Ask on a break or something and then don't get the chance to that's when it gets a little bit difficult to like you're doing a lot of extra research to try to find this information and then you don't have the information. Like you would not be able to find it. 

0:47:10 - Speaker 2
I think that you could just call the attorney. Yeah, you could probably find it or entirely go to find it. Right, you know in seconds for it, right? 

0:47:17 - Speaker 3
And I think you know most of the court reporters that that we work with, we know, we've known them for a long time and you know, i know, like if my clients talking about I don't want to butcher anybody's name, but like one of the local doctors is called like Archimonde and like I know how to spell Archimonde's name because I've had him, but you know, so I'll say can you spell that for the reporter? 

0:47:37 - Speaker 1
I always appreciate when attorneys do that. Yeah Right, but often they kind of just forget Yeah. 

0:47:43 - Speaker 3
I just like keep talking about it and I'm like okay let me make a note to ask about that. Yeah, and I'll always ask the court reporter before we're done. Do you need my client to stay to spell the names of her kids, or anything like that? 

0:47:54 - Speaker 1
Yeah, that's good. That's always helpful. 

0:47:57 - Speaker 3
I never understood why everybody always wants to know the names of the kids. What case has risen or fallen on the names of the kids? Exactly, it's true. It's true. 

0:48:06 - Speaker 1
Well, aren't they supposed to be in just initials? If it's underage, i guess. 

0:48:09 - Speaker 2
Hmm, yes. 

0:48:10 - Speaker 1
They should just be initials Yeah, yeah, that shouldn't be too much of an issue. I think that's good. Is there anything else that you want to? just anything you'd like to share before we close our interview? I? 

0:48:21 - Speaker 3
think we did pretty good? No, i think we covered all our ground. 

0:48:23 - Speaker 1
This was really great. Yeah, i think this is going to be very helpful for all the listeners of the podcast who are trying to up level their careers and their professions and run their businesses. So, as one more question, just really quickly, i hope it doesn't take too much time. 

0:48:38 - Speaker 3
She's like an attorney. 

0:48:39 - Speaker 1
She says one more question and then it's 10. I'm your great attorney. So, as business owners. You run your own practices as attorneys, so if you could share a little bit about how you decided to do that or what struggles you've overcome in that. 

0:48:57 - Speaker 2
Well, i worked for several private law firms right after I got out of the DA's office. So I was with two relatively larger firms where there is a structure with partners, associates. Then I left one particular firm with a couple of the other partners and we formed our own firm. So I had two other partners and my wife was actually she had just given birth to our second child, so she was not working full time, so she worked with us a little bit. 

But it got to the point where, you know, there's sometimes this agreement sign to what direction a firm should go and where expenses are best applied. And after my youngest son got a little bit older, my wife and I decided that you know, hey, you know, this is something that we could do. We don't need to be arguing with other people and if they didn't have share our vision for what we wanted. So I think it was in 2006 that we decided, you know, let's give this thing. We both had plenty of legal experience, we both had a lot of clients and it was probably the best decision we ever made. So, you know, it's the two attorneys, but luckily we have a lot of colleagues and our relationship with the Calderon law office, for example, is really useful. I think that's what small firms do right now. Rather than you know, try to get too big where you know maybe they're not being as efficient. That's what I saw with my firm is that there was a lot of inefficiency, a lot of wasteful spending. 

0:50:34 - Speaker 1
So you know, the downside is that you know if you go on vacation, then you know there's no one watching the shop, but then again, you know, you make relationships with people and you can trust Because, like when you have a business to run and all the other little administrative details and all the law details that go- into running a business. It can take away from the time you have to really put your heart into you know what you really want to be doing Exactly exactly the way it is. 

0:50:59 - Speaker 3
I think we're both at the stage though we were just having this conversation over coffee yesterday that we're both at the stage where we don't really we're not. We don't have to take every case that comes our way. You know we're able to pick and choose the cases and we, you know, try to take cases that we feel are. You know that we are competently skilled in. I don't, like we said, we don't often venture into the world of real estate closing because I don't really know how to do that. It would be a big learning curve for me. So I'll partner with somebody else that can do that and I'll sort of stay in my lane. 

0:51:32 - Speaker 1
You know Constraining to what your expertise is is so helpful I think for our mental health and for our brains like we cannot be all over the place and constrained to what we know and what we do best is always good. 

0:51:45 - Speaker 3
So we're comfortable and we're confident in what we do Exactly. 

0:51:49 - Speaker 1
Okay, well, lastly, i just want to ask, actually, you know what I'll save that for another time because you know those questions that I said I may ask you your opinion about the law and what life would be like without the law. That's like. I think that's another topic that we can definitely do another time, maybe be a Zoom if it's easier, but and then your role as a judge, as a female judge especially. 

So thank you so much for taking the time to answer my questions and to help me learn a little bit more about how things are perceived from the client's end of our jobs. 

0:52:19 - Speaker 3
Right. Well, we appreciate your wanting to know about it and your interest, and we appreciate your support staff here today too. Yes, thanks for coming, Joey. 

0:52:31 - Speaker 1
To all the podcast listeners. this podcast is growing and I want to offer you an amazing opportunity to be a part of the team. Managing a podcast is kind of like freelance court reporting. There are a lot of small pieces to manage and if you know me, you know I'm all about delegation and working together, because you know what they say if you want to go fast, go alone, but if you want to go far, go together. So if you're interested in helping out with things like transcription, show notes, copywriting, marketing, engagement, head over to courtreporterconnectioncom and navigate to opportunities and then you can apply there.